Podcasts

Episode 15- Decoding AQ with Ross Thornley Feat. Frances West - Lessons from 37 years at IBM on diversity and authentic inclusion

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Intro  

Hi, and welcome to Decoding AQ, helping you to learn the tools mindsets, and actions to thrive in an ever-changing world.

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Ross  

Hi, and welcome to the next episode of Decoding AQ. I've been super excited and looking forward to this conversation with Frances West. We met a few weeks ago in an online event and since meeting, I've gone on my normal internet stalking to try and see a little bit more about you, I was fascinated by our early conversations. And for the listeners, Frances is, I'm not sure how you would describe 37 years at IBM but.

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Frances  

You just gave away my age, which I don't appreciate but okay.

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Ross  

I think it is absolutely phenomenal testament to both you and an organization that can evolve and adapt in order to grow and develop in harmony over that length and period of time, because so much change, I'm sure you will have experienced and seen. So I'm excited to dive into that. And also your TED Talk, which was really interesting, thank you for sharing that, we'll post a link to it for those listening as well who want to dive a bit deeper, and your area and focus now on sort of authentic inclusion and human-centered in human first in this balance between technology and people. So welcome.

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Frances  

Well, thank you. This is quite honored to be on and especially like you mentioned, when we were on the online forum together, you can just tell that we were like talking with each other and at times almost past each other because both of us have a similar point of view on a lot of things. 

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Ross  

Yeah it's nice, isn't it? When you find the alignment of mindset and thinking that in one case allows you to smile, it feels a sense of, “Ah I must be on the right track”. And equally, something you champion is this diversity, diversity of thought and how do we include that. And you've spoken on so many stages addressing the UN, been board members, and various different things and roles. And I just, I can't wait to get stuck into this. So where I'd like to start us off is perhaps just give us a little flavor of your journey, some of the highlights just to give us context. I know I've shared IBM, but there's been many other experiences. So I just like you to give us a bit of an intro to your background.

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Frances  

Sure. I will start what I'm doing now. And I'm going backwards, because like you said, 37 years if I started the other way we might run out of time. So currently, I'm the founder of "Frances West Co" and is a global strategy advisory company working with businesses and government, especially international government organizations like ILO and UN to really address the topic of a digital inclusion and digital accessibility. And also as you mentioned, I wrote a book so I guess I can call myself an author. And one of the things I'm really focused on doing is really take this many years of technology business and frankly a woman in tech/ immigrant/ kind of minority. Asian person's perspective onto the main stage so to speak and really educate I think, or reframe the topic of inclusion, and then translate that into a business context. 

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And this all came about, like you mentioned, I spend my, I'm a legacy. You can call the legacy IBMers and first started in the IBM fresh out of college, and was in sales and marketing for the first maybe 25 years of my life. So I was actually in the mainstream sales marketing profession. 

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And one of the highlights was in the mid 90’s, I actually was asked to go to China actually managing that what we call the "Greater China Group", which included China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, to help open up the financial services sector, which was my specialty at the time on selling mainframe computers and mid-range computers to banking customers, including, for example, People's Bank of China, which is a Federal Reserve equivalent and also "Shanghai Stock Exchange. 

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So it was that kind of a background that I came from. But then my last job in IBM, IBM Research as the head of IBM Human Ability and Accessibility Center, that's the job that gave me I would say, more than just a job, a meaning in life so to speak. Because it's one job, where you work on advanced technology with the smartest technologists in the world of researchers, and really try to think ahead and think about how. For example technology, I started to get around 2003, the mobile which is coming onto the scene, you know how do you make mobile technology to be accessible to all. 

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And then as I was getting ready to, I would say, graduate from IBM AI and then of course, blockchain and all these technologies was coming on. Again, the whole idea of that technology is there to serve people it was a common theme but it was amplified in my last job. So that became my calling, so to speak.

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Ross  

It's fascinating, isn't it? When we go through our lives, and we get applause at various points, self applause, because we feel privileged or grateful to get certain opportunities, and that we accomplish something, whether it's a small project or a promotion. And then there are people around us in certain circles, that applause us and say, “Oh good job”, and they buy from us again or they come back. To then reaching a point, whenever it comes to say, this is no longer a job, this is a calling. It's part of “Now I understand, this is why I am here, how can I serve humanity to leave it better than I found it?”.

And it's so warming when you meet people who have found that in their careers, and it's, I think it is a case of experimentation, rather than a blind “Ah” moment, I think it takes effort, it takes thoughtful progress to go and experiment and discover and find and perhaps identify and unlock, and then maybe lean in. 

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So in terms of that experience for you taking all of these technologies, and I loved how you talked about technology is there to serve humans, and how do we augment so that we can have a harmonious and beneficial relationship with technology, and that it is inclusive, rather than exclusive. I want to give us a timestamp of this recording, it's March 31 2020. 

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And we are right in the middle of COVID-19. And I'm interested in your perspective of how you have seen the best things of inclusion, maybe perhaps barriers and borders, and geographies and technologies that once were maybe protected and isolated. Have you seen an inclusion of humanity, and maybe you could share a couple of thoughts or stories on what you've seen that is a positive part of that human centered use of technology?

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Frances  

Absolutely, I think to start with as you know, COVID-19 it's kind of a almost targeting the aging, and people with underlying to some extent, you can call it disabilities, right? I mean, physical disability or whatever. And as you know, everybody have heard the statistic that the world is aging, in countries like Italy which is not surprising, over 25% of its population is already over age 25, I mean over 65 and Spain's the second oldest country in Europe.

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So for the longest time, we listened to all these talk about demographic as just a number but when you see the impact, of the human impact of COVID-19 on people literally being cared or dying frankly in this case in Italy. I think it may reveal to all of us that we are not a machine eventually there a such a thing called expiration day, right. And I think that brings humanity a lot closer to every one of us.

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And then of course from the business setting. And if you look at a lot of technology, so for example, speech to text, those technology with captioning and things like that. It's becoming almost crucial as we use video format for communication through Zoom or through Skype, because when you are connecting in the workplace in a remote working setting, which we're all forced to do. If you have for example, facilities like captioning as I speak, then you can involve international audience with much more clarity in terms of what's being communicated than just hearing a person speaking perhaps with accent.

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So I really feel that COVID-19 gave us an opportunity to look within ourselves and look around us, that we are a human race, and that everything we deploy is there to support the fundamental existence of human race. And I do feel prior to COVID-19 that we actually are going off the rails, so to speak a bit. Sometimes in pursuing for example, technology for technology's sake and frankly, pursue profit for profit's sake, which of course created this disparity of wealth.

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And also in the digital realm. And the digital access or the digital barrier actually was going, it's exponentially bigger, especially through technology like AI. If we do not intentionally think about whether it is good for every man, simply because it's so powerful. So I think COVID-19 is actually, as far as I'm concerned, that welcome pause in humanity, so we can rethink and reframe.

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Ross  

I think it's really interesting that this is not to, not acknowledge the tragedy that many will face in this. There is huge disruption as you've talked about from death, through to job loss through to bankruptcies, it's going to be a huge disruption. But that doesn't have to be seen as the end of the world. We can choose to look at this and take a pause and decide, what is it that we want to take forward? And in terms of preparing ourselves for the future, each day we have a choice of, what are we going to do today that is going to make tomorrow better for me, for my community, and for the people around as it expands?

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I'm interested in terms of, it might be moments like this, that builds such a burning platform and a unity that accelerates innovation, that can give rise to new technologies, new applications of them to serve those that perhaps, might be left behind. And technology can help us with scaling certain things. And this is a massive scale issue. Before that, just as we said only a matter of a few weeks ago, our panel was about upskilling and reskilling the global workforce. 

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And the challenge I feel and I think we both shared this was, we can upskill and reskill on an individual basis, we can do that. We've shown that we can prove that people can develop, organizations can develop and we can train and reskill people, when we have time and when it's few. When we don't have time and it's many, that's where it becomes challenging. And I think this is a key opportunity of technology to help us in this moment. 

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So I'm interested on your thoughts of what kind of visions and things can organizations and people do to help prepare them for these various situations and changes ahead?

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Frances  

I think I can give you one very personal example of how this whole situation called for change of individual behavior, but actually augmented by technology, so you can scale. So my husband is a clinical psychologist. He’s old school, same patient, you know one patient at a time and face to face. And I'm of course on the technology side. So I've been talking to him for years, actually ahead of the curve and said, “You know, you should really think about teletherapy. 

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And his standard answer used to be “Oh, no, no. You can never replace the face to face in the room”, that kind of experience. And well, so COVID-19 hit and over the weekend, his entire practice had to convert over to teletherapy because patients cannot come to the office anymore. And at the same time, there's actually a third factor. I think between the kind of a human wanting or forced to change in this case, like my husband. And also in this case having an infrastructure, technology infrastructure, in this case they started using Zoom. 

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But there was also policy changes because before there was a lot of HIPAA complying in the United States of privacy issues. So one cannot for example, use just a generic webcast platform to conduct medical related business. But they temporarily waive that policy to say, “Okay, let's go forward”, because it would take years to do that. 

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So I think these are examples of unusual circumstances that forces the adaptability of organization. Which actually I was quite impressed that his practice was able to overnight turn around things. And I think this just gives us an inkling, I think that extreme conditions actually is going to be the new norm. Whether it’s environment, COVID-19 certainly proved to us in the commerce side, in the workplace side, everything is going to be very different. 

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So one really has to think about the extreme scenario of planning, and then come back to the norm. You cannot just put the blinders on and say, “That's not going to happen, I'm just going to pursue what's ahead of me”, which actually ties back to why I feel so strongly about studying and working. And using technology to support people who are aging, people with disabilities. Because if you look at the bell curve, it's almost like these are what I call the extreme, the edge people right, people who are extremely, they're old or capability wise where ability wise are challenged. 

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But if you can design your system, where you're thinking to the extreme population, chances are, when you deploy it, you're going to gain efficiency and effectiveness in your normal operation, but then also you can take care of the extreme case. So I think that's a change of mindset, instead of a plan for the norm, it’s plan for the extreme, will be a very usable kind of mindset going forward.

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Ross  

I like that concept, that the extreme is the new norm. And that that can be in a variety of different contexts. So it can be extreme in terms of, it's now required to be done at speed, overnight something has to change. It could be extreme in terms of the edges of demographics and minorities that previously weren't either accessible or maybe profitable to serve in terms of the return of how much it might take to leverage or to give value to them or from them.

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And I think technology can give us an opportunity to reach those edges, reach those edges in time before it's too late, and in a way in which it's sustainable. And the future of work for me, I'm fascinated by the concept of retirement. Retirement was created there because there wasn't enough jobs. And we needed to give jobs to those that were youth and coming up. 

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And perhaps now, we have an opportunity for multiple levels of careers for people. And if our life expansion extends beyond 120 and beyond. The concept of halfway through at 60 or 65 or 70 being “Ah, now you're no longer valuable”, to what might those careers be? How could we unlock the expertise and opportunities to have portfolio careers for those that previously thought they were winding down to going, “Now I can wind back up again”, and see that as a choice and excitement, rather than “Oh, I have to do that just to exist”.

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And so I foresee a really wonderful kind of ignitement and phoenix of an entire generation to be able to contribute in entirely new ways, in new contracts and new social contracts of terms of how they can deliver that underpinned by technology. I think that would be fascinating.

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Frances  

Oh absolutely. I mean, I think I'm a living example of that, right. I mean to me there is such a, just like everything even life itself forces you to think about, you cannot live as independent because we're a social animal. 

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So even in the workplace case, as you kind of aging, your contribution is going to be different than say, the younger generation, but it's actually very complementary right, because as you age, you gain experience. And so for example, I'm much, I think I'm better at thinking strategically, holistically, because I've lived the life and I learned the lessons, the tough lessons. 

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So that's why I love working with startups. I mean, they just couldn't, I just couldn't be happier, every time I talk to these late 20, 30 year old, they are full of energy, they can work 24/7.  What I can do is to kind of give them some suggestion, and I go to bed early, and then when I wake up, they already have like, pre-read from for whatever I told them about. 

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And so that energy and the physical energy that they have, it complements of my kind of thoughts or I guess what some people call it wisdom so to speak. And so that kind of combination, I think it's a model to come, right you really, each one of us because of technology we can choose who we want to be with, and who we want to talk to, who we want to really innovate with. And then create a dynamic team, like just what we have done here, right? We met online and liked each other's point of view and now we're connected. It could never have happened this way, if we didn't have the technology that allowed us to do so.

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Ross  

I think it's important to come back to your work and your purpose as well. Because the choice might be that I surround myself with reflections of myself. So I choose to only swim in the same ponds and same seas that look like me, think like me, and want to do the same things, same approaches, same solutions. But actually there's an opportunity to choose it because you understand the power of diversity and that authentic inclusion of whether it's minorities, we've mentioned age, there's cultures, geographies, upbringing, all of these sorts of things.

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Another organization that I'm fascinated by it's called "XPRIZE". And it was started by Peter Diamandis, about 25 years ago, I think, and its first piece was inspired by the competition for transatlantic flight. And "Spirit of St. Louis" I think it was called. And it was a Parisian hotelier who had a hotel in America in New York, and one in Paris. And he was fed up with how long it used to take him to travel by boat, and the early work of the Wright Brothers. And he put up a prize fund of $25,000 for the first private team or person to do a transatlantic flight. 

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And hundreds of people competed for that, and it gave birth to the modern aviation market. And so wind forward, Peter took that same concept of thinking of an incentive prize, and leveraging the power of the crowd to do spaceflight. And I think it was launched around ‘95, ‘96 and it was one in 2004, when the first private team managed to do a suborbital space flight twice within two weeks and bring back the crew safely. And it's what became Virgin Galactic. So, Virgin Galactic, SpaceX, and all these private companies that are now working in space.

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And now my point is X prize now, over those years put together these massive problems and challenges. And rather than deploying a team of lab, white lab coat wearing R&D specialists and giving them resources and milestones and saying, “Right, solve this problem”, and doing that to try and leverage a competitive advantage over another company to solve a problem and then capitalize on it. They've said, “Here's the fund”. And they've de-risked it because they've said “That funds payable when you meet these criteria, go”. And so the world, whether you're then a team in the middle of Africa, or in remote parts of China, you can compete to solve those problems and challenges. 

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And I think this opportunity now of authentic inclusion to allow any geography, any age, any region to contribute to a problem, if they care about it. And what we can also do now is join up with siloed work. So we might have had an expert working in it in Switzerland for example, who has no idea that somebody in Sydney is working on the same problem, and how beautiful that would be to be able to combine them to see how quickly we might be able to advance that. So I'm fascinated but it's not easy right? To have diversity.

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Frances  

It’s not easy. Actually, when things happen easily, I think you actually have to have a lot of forethought into that, right? Because things really don't happen just by accident, I think in those kinds of situations, or the example you cited, it’s because the leader, the people who has the means actually have the foresight, to say, this is the model, this is how I want to create the environment. 

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And then give some fuel behind it, so to speak, and then people will come, right. Through my book about authentic inclusion, when you hear the word inclusion, the kind of a general reaction is, “Oh HR thing”, right. But my whole point is, this inclusion, or authentic inclusion can only happen at the very top of the business. It is the C suite, in the United States case, because it's really, this is a CEO kind of a model. It’s the CEO, and then to the smaller extent that the board. It's really people at the very top, who has the power and the resource and have the influence, making a very conscious, intentional decision that I want my organization to be barrier-free, to talent that wants to join me. 

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I mean, that has to be built into your system thinking into your processes. When I say processes, like one of the things that I remember the good practices and in the IBM, when you work in a say, in what we call the line job, like customer facing, directly facing the in line position, if you're really good at it, they actually take you out of the line job and and put you in what we call the staff job. Staff job is like you actually follow some senior executive and basically carry his or her back which is very humbling. 

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And then you have to do a lot of strategy work, thinking work, but not just go in front of the customer, and sell something, and you have to think, learn how to think. They will alternate and that's how they groom the executive for them as you go along, you constantly going from line to staff, staff to line. In a way is giving you, it’s taking you out of the comfort zone, put you deliberately in a different situation.

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And then you really, if you're really successful, they really want to make a kind of international or global executive, put you in different geography Africa, Japan, China, right. So there's a system that was built behind to really expand one's perspective, experience, and exposure.

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So I think it's two way, right. I mean, as an individual, such as myself, when I came to the United States at 19, and barely speaking English. I personally had a desire to work for a multinational company. So I tried everything I could to get there. But then what met me, was a company that's willing to have that be available. 

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Ross  

The environment was there.

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Frances  

Exactly.

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Ross  

And the culture was there, to allow you to be able to perform.

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Frances  

Correct. It takes two to tango so to speak.

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Ross  

It does, it does. And what you've just described there isn't an exact case of improving adaptability. Someone acquires a skill and then how do they use that skill in a different environment? So they change the environment to whether it's a geographical one, or internal versus external focus to see, Ah when you see it from this perspective, how do you now apply those skills and thought processes? What do you need to leave behind and unlearn? And what do you need to learn as new skills as we go through?

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I'm interested in just before we hit the record on this episode, we had a brief conversation about the differences you are now experiencing, going from being inside a huge organization with huge resources to now, not I’m feeling more like a startup and talk a little bit about that transition and how are you adapting, what are you finding has come up? What's easy? What new skills are you doing? What new software are you looking at? Just give us a description of what that's been like in your transition?

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Frances  

It's been a fascinating journey. And I can tell you that the person that missed the most is my assistant and my IT person, and all that maybe, and then the sequencing, and then the marketing person, then the lawyers. Never had I ever thought I will love to have a name of a lawyer, so badly. And it's been a very interesting thing in the sense that, you take it for granted, the infrastructure support, a corporation, career for you. And then as you go out on your own as an entrepreneur every day, you're faced with making a decision or having to learn on the job, so to speak, right. Because as I'm going about creating my first service contract it's like, “Boy, I wish I had that lawyer help me to do this”.

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But at the same time, it's been really energizing, because I didn't realize how much I could still learn. And that as you learn, you actually build up different confidence about who you are. So now I'm like, four years into my entrepreneur/startup, I feel like there is another person emerging. And I can't say if it was comfortable or easy at first. Because I remember in the first few times when I was giving speeches or advising my customers, people will hear like IBM the word like all the time. But now I finally began to be kind of switch over that because I think all these knowledge I gained, not by choice in many cases by necessity. It's forming a different confidence and also the persona, so to speak. That sometimes I myself, even like, “Wow this is interesting”. But anyway, so it's been a very, actually very rewarding experience.

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Ross  

So some of the things that I guess you will have experienced is a new curiosity, you talked about how much can I learn being open-minded to that. It helps you then to unlock that curiosity and build new capabilities to invent. Now, who do you want to be? What's my new identity? As Frances, as in charge of who I am, who I work with, and how I do it? But equally then, how I resource it? What kind of support do I need? And so an adaption from “Ah they’re down the hall, or they're in another department, they'll take my call, they’ll know who I am” to, “Well, who would I want to collaborate with? Who would I want my IP lawyer to be? Is it somebody who just has that skill or is it someone who thinks like me, who's aligned to my mission?”.

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So you start to explore new realms of freedom and that can be exciting and fearful. So inside an organization, you don't even have to think about that because you go there, that's where it is, it’s this department. Whereas now making that choice, it's going to be an interesting experience of you of adapting to find not just the tasks to be done. But who you want to do that with.

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Frances  

Well actually, you hit a very, very significant point. I think in this new world, what I've found is I actually have to trust my instinct a lot more than ever. Just like a lawyer, as you know there are tons and tons of lawyers everybody actually wants to sell you their services. So how do you know whether it's real or a poser, right? So I think, as I was reflecting, getting ready for this chat with you, I was thinking about adaptability. One thing as you can see, I have to be quite adaptable through my career with IBM, and now I'm an entrepreneur. But the more adaptable you are, in a way you actually have to really know who you are. I don't know whether that makes sense or not. Because on one hand, I'm very flexible. I can try many things, whether it's here or there and everywhere. And I've been curious, I can go into the woods and never come back. So having a strong sense of what's your true north in this case and then also coupled by another thing, which I think is equally important. What is your value, or what is in a way, so I guess you can say its purpose or integrity, some of these kinds of, I guess people will say more of kind of ethic or moral based value is actually very important. Because I think in this world of tomorrow, especially post COVID-19, we're going to be forced to be even more adaptable working with different organizations and be both in means and also in the task itself. 

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But one has to be very, always have to come back to yourself and say, “Why am I doing this, who I'm doing it for?” and so having that true north of the purpose and also value is going to be the guiding force.

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Ross  

I think it is in times of accelerated change and pressure, we need leadership more than ever. And I think that leadership is not necessarily a person, it's a function that every one of us has and that we can unlock. What's the leadership of my own life or my career of the future that I want? And yes, we lead ourselves and then we start to lead others. 

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And I've been over 20 years an entrepreneur, and I've had lots of different roller coaster examples of we are rewarded by the results, not by time and effort. And I think that transition inside organizations where our economy is led from time and effort generally, and then a few are taking the risk that is rewarded by the result, by the impact. And the entrepreneurial leap that you've taken now to be rewarded, it doesn't matter how much effort you put in, or how much time you put in, is the result that you achieve.

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That means whether you survive or collapse, or whether you thrive, one of the things I would perhaps share with you and other listeners who are maybe in a similar situation is choosing who you collaborate with and your suppliers shouldn't be a function of just the capability. The capability as a plethora of people who can do what you're looking for. Unless there are very, very few niches where it might be, there's only a few capability examples in certain deep technologies. For example, we might have a scarcity of that skill set. But generally, there's an abundance, particularly lawyers, marketing, all these types of things.

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And the mindset has been something that has served me very well. And we've created a mindset and a mindset scorecard for who we collaborate with. So things like being mission-driven, curious and always learning, can they be their authentic self? So you'll be fascinated to know that on our scorecard of our mindsets, his authentic self. Things like being a hero, do they want to be a hero to somebody? Are they interested in co-elevation? Are they pining? So these are things that are for us, what we look for and then secondary is then “Ah, the scale of the capability of the lawyer”, right.

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And that gives us a framework of filtering. And to kind of bring us into the sort of final phase of this, we are all facing accelerating change. And COVID-19 is just one example of this accelerating change. There'll be accelerating change brought on by technology, which then means we have to reinvent ourselves create new identities, reskill and upskill.

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And I wondered if you could share two final things. One is, what do you think are the essential skills for the coming decade for individuals and organizations? What are you seeing from all of your experience, but also your horizon of what you're looking out in the future? And the second part to that is, are there any simple tips? What are you currently doing or that you could help for people to adapt to thrive in that kind of environment and world? So what are the two, perhaps essential skills for the next decade? And what kind of tips that people could start doing today to help improve them?

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Frances  

So maybe because I've been in the technology business all my life. I just think that, being very mindful of what technology is going or is doing, is so important. And again, I go back to the example of my husband. You can be in a completely human-centric profession like being a psychologist or psychiatrist. Because you're dealing with the core of human minds. But even in that kind of profession, technology can be your friend.

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And actually, I'm giving grand rounds at the University of Massachusetts Medical School tomorrow. And I'm very honored, I have just been appointed instructor at the Department of Psychiatry at UMass Medical School. And one of the things I wanted to talk to the young doctor is that, as you know in the Health Tech, there's a lot of innovation. Many, many people knows that healthcare needs to be reinvented using technology. 

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So you get these 25 year old, out of MIT. And I'm in Boston, I shouldn't be saying that. But you know, what we call the whippersnappers. Coming out with all these ideas and teletherapy and this and that, but they've really never treated a psychiatric patient in their lives, right. And the here on the other hand, you have these very like a Sigmund Freud kind of psychologist, years and years of a psychoanalysis experience but they didn't want to touch technology. So I keep looking at these two things, I'm like we have to break the barrier for them to come together for the old guard, to be comfortable, to engage the technologist. And then for the technologists to have the humility, to understand that just because you can put it on the web, I mean put it on the mobile apps or even on you using quantum analytics, it's not going to address the human issues.

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So I think the technology as a technologist, you have to remind technology needs to be made human. And for the human needs to know that they need technology. So like in my book, I have a saying that, as technology gets more human, we need to get more human. So that's I think, one thing that all of us need to be more than mindful of where technology is going, but then also participate. Participate in the making of the technology.

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And then the last thing is actually not because you invited me on your podcast, adaptability or flexibility is the name of the game. We will be entering into such a disruptive world and then disruptive not just in business model. I think for the past 20 years, there's been a lot of disruption of a business model like insourcing to outsourcing and things like that. I think that disruption is on a personal level, just like what we're seeing with a COVID-19. So every day, we have to be really mindful to see to say, “Okay first, not be overwhelmed by all the changes”. And again associate yourself with people you can trust. And maybe using your scorecard to figure out who are your circle of friends or colleagues that you want to be with. And really remain flexible in your thinking, in your mind, and then adaptable in your behavior, because that's the only way to frankly, to ride through this very turbulent time.

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And frankly, there's a lot of, it's gonna be a new world where the script has yet to be written yet. So one has to recognize that that's really the new reality. But at the same time, it's very exciting, right?

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Ross  

And that’s the perspective right, is to choose to be excited or choose to be fearful. Choose to be grateful or choose to not, each of these things. And I loved what you shared there about the humility. Having the humility to see the other side. So whether you are a deep knowledge expertise and not so technology-enabled. Or whether you're technology-enabled or not so deep in the area that you want to support, have the humility to join those. So humility, with collaboration, that then underpinned by an adaptable mindset that is experimental can maybe give us hope, in ever-changing uncertain times. And I think that…

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Frances  

And I think it’s not a maybe, it will be the whole, right? Exactly.

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Ross  

Yeah, I love that. And any final pieces so we're definitely going to share in, when this is live your TED Talk, which was really great. Well done for that. Your book and a link to the book. And in terms of how people, if they've heard you speak and they think “I like what you're up to, I like what you're doing”, how could they get in touch with you? What would be ways in which they could show up to you to help support your work and collaborate with you?

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Frances  

Well sure, I mean I have a website, "www.FrancesWest.co" not .com,  FrancesWest.co or follow me on Twitter, @fwest34 or LinkedIn. I think this is an area we talked about before the show started said, this whole authentic inclusion, it is a mindset that I'm hoping to enable the business especially the work, the future, and also the all the institution, I shouldn't say just business, government nonprofit, to really think differently about diversity.

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So I do need, you and your audience's support in getting the message out, through social media. Because that's one thing I'm not very good at but I think it's high time that we raise topics like inclusion, not in a feel-good kind of social responsibility context but in a must do strategic imperative, because after all there's only two things matter in this world. One is environment. One is people. So, if we are really truly authentic about caring for people, then inclusion is a must-do. It’s not just a checkbox on your HR list to do's so.

Ross  

Like adaptability, it is an essential to surviving and thriving in the future.

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Frances  

Absolutely.

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Ross  

To drive innovation, to accelerate opportunities and to ensure that we create an environment that we'd love to live in. 

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Frances  

And for all. Not just for some, right.

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Ross  

Yeah, most definitely. Well, it's been an absolute pleasure. And I look forward to further collaborations with you, Frances. And a great story about your husband as well, being adaptable on a dime in a few days. And I bet he's not alone. Many people around the world are having to do just that. 

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Frances  

And then loving it actually. I mean he’s amazing, it’s like he's coming in. He's like, “Wow, I can do this”. Like yes, you can.

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Ross  

Brilliant. Hopefully, we can. Well we will build that confidence for people to adapt quickly, build the muscles to do so, so that every time something changes, that they can take it with a smile and thrive in the future. So I wish you all the best. Good luck with your session tomorrow at the university and take care.

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Frances  

Thank you.

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Voiceover  

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Outro

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