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Overcoming resistance to change

Adaptability
Episode:

22

2021-01-05

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Decoding AQ with Ross Thornley Feat. Dr Mindy L. Gewirtz

Show Notes

Dr. Mindy, an MCC certified coach, author, entrepreneur, executive, is Adjunct Faculty at Lewis University and Faculty and Honorary Director at Potential Genesis, Chennai India. She is President of Collaborative Networks, an executive coaching, and leadership development firm.  The pair discuss Coaching, team development, resilience, embracing resistance and how our brains are hardwired. Leadership in uncertain times. Communicating as a team, coaching clients, navigating accelerating change and essential skills for the next decade.


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Timestamps


1:17: A little of Mindy's background?
5:34: What would Mindy do differently for a system change
8:11: Discussing resistance and challenges Mindy has come across in her career
15:36: How can organisation's/people prepare for keeping up with the pace of change ahead
18:53: The key differences between leadership yesterday and leadership now
21:39: Who has been successful (teams, leaders, organisations) embracing transformation and re-skilling?
28:41: Managing future change
31:25: Tips for teams to adapt and thrive
37:54: Tips for individuals to adapt and thrive
44:50: Predictions for this time next year and tips to thrive?


Full Podcast Transcript

Episode 20 - Decoding AQ with Ross Thornley Feat. Dr Mindy L. Gewirtz - Overcoming resistance to change

Intro

Hi, and welcome to Decoding AQ, helping you to learn the tools, mindsets, and actions to thrive in an ever-changing world.

Ross  

Hi, and welcome to the next episode of Decoding AQ, I've got a very special guest that I'm honored to have the conversation and share with you. We have Dr. Mindy Gerwirtz. And she is an author, entrepreneur, she's a faculty at a university, all-around exactly our subject. It’s leadership, it’s adaptability, it’s developing teams to thrive. And what I loved one bit that you shared with me earlier was your mission is to coach leaders and top teams to adapt, to thrive and lead with their humanity in an age of innovation and accelerated complexity and uncertainty. And that just made my heart sing. So welcome.

Mindy  

Thank you, thank you.

Ross  

So let's start off with just a little bit about a memory lane of your background, perhaps some highlights of things that you've been up to, and your 25 years of in this space, just share a little bit of some of your background.

Mindy  

Yes. And my background is one of adaptability, in a sense. Because I started out as most people did, in my decades. Started as a teacher, went on to do clinical work and social work, went on to nonprofit leadership, and then decided after my PhD is that change was too slow in the nonprofit world. And so I moved over into the organizational work where change was a lot faster. Because I'm like a yeast I guess, in the sense that I create change wherever I go. I just tend to be a catalyst. And I see change, I see it coming around the corner and I can help myself. So I like to be there at the bleeding edge of things. 

So I seem to move with all of the shifts, as things are happening. And like Madonna, I kind of change or every transform myself, every decade or so. And I used to kind of wonder about that, and say, Well, why don't I just stay in one place like normal people do. And then I realized, well you know, I take the skills from before and then I add them, I don't lose them. I become richer to adding them to the new things. So there's kind of a method to the madness, now that I look at it 30 years afterwards in hindsight. Though necessarily wouldn't plan it that way.

Ross  

Listening to that would you describe yourself then as a change addict? You know you get a real hit from change?

Mindy  

Absolutely. I create change, I thrive in change. And I am intuitive predictor of change. So I can see ahead and connect the dots and see the patterns. So just as a good coach can help see the patterns in a client's thinking and help them to see it and change it, if they're not adaptive. I can see that in a team. I can see that on an organizational level. So I kind of help individuals change and help systems change.

Ross  

I think that's a hard one. Getting systems to change can often be really complex and hard.

Mindy  

A bear, a real bear. And one system that I did that it took… First I thought it would take two years, it took five years. And then after five years, the world kind of like COVID, the perfect storm happened. And the product which was sitting on top of the world, suddenly there was textiles coming in from China that totally devalued the product because the goods were cheap, and they fell apart after you wash them but they were 50% cheaper. And there was a perfect storm literally where you didn't need winter clothes anymore. And then there was a fire that totally devastated the whole manufacturing, buildings and they were $50 million in debt. 

Ross  

Wow. And I guess for that system change, you talk about a perfect storm. Are those the things that can be both ridden and also created? What would be your observations from going in like, “Ah there's a system change that needs changing, I think it's going to take two years but it took five”, what would be the learnings from that experience if you were to do it again? What would you do differently for a system change?

Mindy  

Well, what's fascinating is originally the system change was around work and family issues. We were going to create in those days, a whole system to be able to support the 3000 workers. Which were mostly multicultural disadvantaged folks in the area. A whole system of child care, elder care, it was beautiful, it was a $500,000 project. We got the city involved, everything was just ready to go for him to sign. And he was very much in favor of it. And then the fire happened and then it all fell apart. And then we said to ourselves, we know this is never gonna happen again. 

And so what we did at that time, because everything stop and because we have worked with the CEO, what he was and what he did, and he was very famous at that time, he decided to pay his 3000 workers right through the holidays and keep them until they rebuilt and pay them. So it cost the mill a ton of money to do that. 

And even though it was in Massachusetts where nobody had textile manufacturing anymore, he swore on that winter day, we were there with him, my company to rebuild. And we said, “Okay, time to pivot”. And for six months, we did pro bono work with him. Everything that we could, we did coaching, we did team development, and we turned the organization into a team-based organization. 

Ross  

Interesting.

Mindy  

Because that's what they needed.

Ross  

And I guess such a show of not just the characteristics of being a good human, but resilience. To be able to have everything set up, an event happens, and still show up the next day with a positive view and hope in the future. How has that kind of shaped your career? These events that have happened, somebody who is yearning, searching, creating change. What's been some of the challenges in your career? And what's been some of the highlights as a result of that aspiration?

Mindy  

One of the wonderful rewards is I've gotten to see actually change happen. The challenge is I've gotten to see how difficult it is for change to happen. And to learn that how to embrace resistance. That is, I think, the real key to making change happen,  

Ross  

Embrace resistance. Tell me more about that.

Mindy  

So Lewin would say that if you want to create change, we always think that we want to drive change. What he says though is the more you drive change, the more people resist, because that's how we're hardwired. Because if we didn't resist change, and we jump to every change, we wouldn't survive. Because change is always happening. 

So our brain is not hardwired to change. It's really hard-wired, for homeostasis. However, we have to adapt as well, because if we don't adapt, we also don't survive. So what I found in the research is that about a third of us love change, right? And we embrace the change. A third of us hate change. We just have a brain that is not hardwired for change at all. And then there's the whole unmatched middle who are like, “Ugh you got to make me change”. But they'll come along. 

And so what we do is we go where the energy is first. We get those cue givers. And the people who embrace it, they help the other two-thirds. And then the last third, sometimes they leave, sometimes they're asked to leave. And sometimes surprisingly, they do kind of come along. So what I've learned to do is when the resistance is there is to tune in and say they're making sense to themselves. There's a real reason, they're not fighting this brilliant idea that needs to happen. 

And when people feel really heard then they stop fighting it. And I'll give you an example. In that very same place, we want to turn the organization over to 24/7. In terms of a Union, it's a Union organization, actually, they had three different Unions. And if you know anything about Unions, moving from an overtime situation after eight hours to 24/7. And then what it also meant, what we wanted to do is make sure that when it went to 24/7, that all the people who had hardships, people who are in medication, people who were…

And this came from the work-family ethic that we have built-in, so it wasn't forgotten. We wanted to make sure the single mothers were okay. The people who had childcare issues were okay. So we wanted to make adjustments to seniority issues. Because technically, if you had seniority, you would end up on the day shift. And all those women and people with kids and those who came in last would be on the worse shift ever.

So we have to work with the Union to be able to make that happen. So helping the Union to adapt to a new situation, and helping the managers adapt to working within your Union. So I had the manager saying to me, “Ugh the Union, we're going to work with them and all they're going to want to do is get their buddies on the best shifts”. Then I turned to the Union and the Union would say, “How many managers Mindy are you putting on the team? Because if you're going to put more managers than Union people, they're always going to outvote us. And it's going to be useless”.

So when we calmed everybody down and we had a good group going. What in the end ended up happening, we did some team building and team development with them. The Union, the Union employees themselves, supervisors were tougher. Which was fascinating. They were tougher than the managers and you know why? Because they said, “Mindy you know the little old lady, the little one who doesn't really speak English that well, the one who says she's fine and never needs anything, I'm telling you, she’s sick. And if we put her on the night shift like that, it's gonna be terrible for her. Or this one takes depression medication. And he takes it at night”.

And if you think they knew their people, they were wonderful. And the managers didn't really know this kind of stuff. And what they would say,  “Ugh, this person, he's playing the system, don't you give him any”. Because we were able to advance people. We got permission from the Union, that if the social hardship committee said that this person needed special accommodation, they could jump the line in seniority, which was huge at that time. 

Ross  

Interesting.

Mindy  

And that was the first time there was a Joint Union and Management Team that wasn't about negotiating for salary adjustments, it was a whole different environment. And they looked at each other very, very differently. The managers with great respect for the Union that they did that, and the Union with great respect when the managers just kept quiet and whatever the Union said went because they were doing it the right way.

Ross  

In terms of organizations now are facing a world where the amount that's predictable and the amount that's uncertain has shifted and the pace of change is accelerating. How are you preparing and how are you working with organizations to ensure that they can keep pace with that change that's going on? That I think is something that so many people are feeling right now, is that everything's accelerating from them. How can you, what are you doing to prepare them for that? And what are the key kind of insights that you have had over the years that you could share?

Mindy  

So I'll give you an example. I'm working in a government agency. And being able to have individuals rise up to leadership in an uncertain time, and take leadership that is used to doing brilliant, technical things. But that didn't really require leadership. And then suddenly, having to do leadership in an uncertain time, is like making a quantum leap more than traditional workers who have some sense that they're going to be managers who have come out of it. These are people who are now kind of like catapulted, never even thinking of themselves as leaders. All of a sudden, it's like a mind shift that, “Oh, I can do this, I need to do this”. Yes, you can do this, and believe in yourself and get trained to do this, and get coached to do this. Yet it says if the brain needs to be a little bit rewired, that what you did before as an individual contributor is not what you're gonna do now as a leader. And a leader in uncertain time doesn't do what a leader does…

Ross  

Yeah, in normal time.

Mindy  

That’s right, you don't have all the analytics in front of you. You don't have all the answers, you can't do it, like you like to do it. You're gonna have a lot less information in front of you. And you can't do it the way you want to do it. Because you can do it the best yourself. It's gonna have to be through collaboration, and you love collaboration. Yet, you want it to be perfect. Well, guess what? There's no time for perfect. You're gonna have to think like an entrepreneur, and you're gonna have to put it out, you're gonna have to iterate it. If it's not good, okay, fine. Then come back and do it, that times require a different type of leadership. And you can't any longer say, “Yeah, those people over there, we know, they never, they haven't done anything for 10 years”, or this is the level they do, you're going to need to get everything you can out of your people.

Ross  

So in terms of what's different about leadership now, in terms of leadership in uncertain times or leadership in accelerating change, what are the key differences between leadership yesterday, and leadership now?

Mindy  

So I like to, I think of it as single round corners. So the Israelis had trouble as they were going into our villages because they were putting women and children in front of the terrorists. And they couldn't, and as they would turn the corner, they would never know who's going to be popping out. So what they did is they created a gun that could see around corners. And not that it's exactly an appropriate analogy. But a leader has to see around corners. See what's coming without having the entire knowledge in front of him or her. And how do you do that? How, when our eyes don't go that way. 

Ross  

So when we don't have enough data, when we don't have enough information, still being able to make decisive decisions, is that seeing around corners?

Mindy  

Absolutely, yes. That's part of seeing around corners, seeing around corners is also being resilient. It's also keeping your mind open and being growth-oriented in the sense of, “We did that yesterday and that was a great product line. But after COVID, nobody's gonna be interested in that product line anymore. And we need to pivot and do something different. Because if we're not going to pivot, then we're going to be out of business”. So it's going to be able to predict or create. Who was it that said, create the future you want?

Ross  

Yeah, it's a great line, isn't it? You know, it’s the responsibility of saying the control comes from your creation. So if you create it in your mind first, and then from making it up to making it real, that manifests the reality of your own doing. 

Mindy  

That's right.

Ross  

In terms of you've been not only in universities, and developing coaches and leadership programs, inside organizations who's been doing it really well? Who has been able to see around those corners? Who's been able to pivot and adapt fast enough in their businesses? And within that, what were the key components that made that possible? If you can tell us any experiences that you've seen firsthand in that successful transitions of moments of change.

Mindy  

I'll give you one example that I was actually involved in. I was called in by a leadership team that was imploding on itself. And the reason it was imploding on itself is because it couldn't decide if it wanted to go to IPO or not. And the leadership team were also friends, and they all, it was a kind of a 10-year startup. And one of the group, the CFO was told by the board that they needed a new CFO. And he couldn't be the CFO to take them IPO because he wasn't experienced enough. And the CEO agreed, or he agreed with the board, he really didn't agree. But he acquiesced to the board. And they brought me in to kind of calm things down. And I said, “Well, let's find out what's going on here, guys”. And it was kind of the mousse that was hiding on the table. And they were very much black and white, either yes, either no. And what they came up with instead, in terms of adapting themselves is go back to the board, tell them, let the CFO go out on the road. Let him start the process. You guys go look for a CFO, go do your board thing. Go start it and he'll start the process. And whenever you're ready, and you'll see how he's doing. And whenever you're ready. Let's do it. So let's not waste time.

Meanwhile, the CFO did such a fabulous job, that he brought in a ton of money. And he did so well, that they went to IPO right before the crash. And the team was all happy. And this CFO outlasted everybody else on the team. When a new CEO came in, because they said now to the old CEO, you're not equipped to take, you know what goes around comes around. You're not equipped to really take this on. 

And so they brought me in again. So I was kind of their external consultant over many years. And what we did and worked with the group to adapt, “Listen, you guys, you want to stay or you want to go or what you want to do”. And we worked it through with them that they ended up staying through the transition to this new CEO. And none of them left. And they all stayed. They all got there. They all did, let's put it this way, they all did very well. And what the CEO told me, the old CEO, that in his mind it was the first time that I ever saw an entire team stay intact, doing different things than they did before and actually we're pretty okay with it.

Ross  

I found that fascinating because to do something different than you were doing before, it takes bravery, it takes vulnerability, it takes courage, it takes so many different factors. And then to perform well and be happy in your skin in that new environment, and then add the complexity of multiple people doing that at the same time within a singular team or organization, is not a recipe for high success of that to happen. 

So what are the sort of things that they actually did on a practical level to navigate that change? Was there a communication cadence? Was there technologies they used? Was there particular coaching techniques? What on the ground level with the practical things that helped them go through that change and come out smiling?

Mindy  

Well, what we did as a team, is they worked it through among themselves, because they were close as a team by this point. And they could really talk to each other. And what they did is they helped each other through it. Because now everybody was vulnerable. Nobody was, you know everybody was going to be doing something a little bit different, except for the CFO, actually. He was the only one out of the group who stayed CFO, everybody else was going to be doing something different than they were going to be doing. And the teamwork through for themselves, what that meant, what it was going to look like, how did they want to operate? And what did they need to be able to feel whole? And what they did is they were able to ask for that. 

So part of it was the financial piece of it, which the board was happy to give them. They were not the type of people who had big egos, which really helped. Usually, because the ego gets in the way and none of these guys were like that. So that was okay for them. They didn't care what they were called. They were all about the work. Can I do my research? Can I do what I love to do? Are you going to let me do what I truly love to do? 

And that's where the work and the coaching and the team came out. What do you need? And everyone kind of, “Oh, I need this many shares and I need this kind of money”. No, what do you need to be happy in addition to that? And that's was the key, I think.

Ross  

So going through change as a team. Focus on what the work is, not the title and leave egos out. Communicate as a whole team, and be open to that opportunity of reimagining. Really these are simple when they said, they're hard to do in practice. And all of these things are hard to do. 

And were there any blips that you observed within that? Where it may be derailed slightly? And was it then about the team observing it and pulling them in? Or was there something else that happened to pull them to leverage that future?

Mindy  

Well, what happened is, I was let go. Because I was considered the old CEO’s coach and person. So I was the first to be let go. So that was kind of sad for me, because I had worked with the group for 10 years and we had all been, and I would be called back in, so I'm not there every day. But the group had become cohesive and had each other. 

And the new CEO was a very different style than the old CEO. He was kind of what should I say? He had the experience to take an organization from 60 million, 100 million to a billion. Which is what they wanted to do, whereas the other CEO did not. So he kind of came out of retirement, semi-retirement to do that, but he was old school. 

And so he just wanted everything kind of hierarchical and all this kind of stuff. And these guys were not like that. Even though they were similar in age. And so what they did, is they just kind of banded together and did their work. So they let him do his stuff and do his M&A’s and go play in the world and they did their work and they had each other. 

Ross  

So having each other but then also having clearly defined lanes. So it allows people to perform, as long as there's alignment and clarity of the mission. If that mission was a billion, well, there's going to be lots of different routes and how's. So if the team can be cohesive, to work around that how and they also give the permission and freedom to allow the odd rogue, that could still work. Whereas others might say, “No, no, no, we all have to comply and do the same thing”. 

So in that scenario, it allowed different approaches to the how, and they thrived from that result. That's interesting. I wonder this situation where we are all facing adaption requirements of our tasks, our roles, as you've said pivoting the very products or services that we generate value from. And what would you give us sort of certain tips, maybe just for teams to start with, and then individuals. So tips for teams to adapt and thrive, what would that be following on from that story and maybe just more generally, as well.

Mindy  

Okay. So the first thing for teams is, they very often think of task only. And I'd like to share with teams, it's like, there are two TV’s going on at the same time. There's the task TV, and then there's the group dynamic TV that's going on at the same time. And you have to be mindful of both. So there's the human part of it. And then there's the task part of it, so that you create elements of both. So what I like to do is help teams to make sure that they have the scaffolding to take care of both. So the first thing is, and especially during the COVID times, start off with what I would call a check-in, see how everybody is, especially virtually.

I was teaching a class on coaching methodologies and we all did this, this was a graduate program. And it was a small group. Well, I was so happy we did because one of the students in the middle caught COVID. And how would we know if we didn't ask. So we were all able to support this one student and help her to complete the course, instead of taking an incomplete, which everyone was so happy to be able to help. And she was so happy to be able to complete. And not have to hide it, not that anyone could catch COVID from in a virtual environment. But that she could be able to be open about it and do it.

So people are human, you don't have to have a 32nd check-in from everybody. It's not going to take a huge amount of time. The second thing is be clear about why you're there. What's the purpose for this group. If all you need to do is share information, for heaven's sakes send an email, use Slack, don't waste everybody's time. 

Third, you only need a team. If more than two people need to be there to do something together. Otherwise, you're not a team, you're a group of people getting together a small work group. If more than two people need to accomplish something you’re a team. And create performance goals for yourself meaning not every day, every time you change what it is. Pick five or seven that you want this team to do over the year, so that you're not constantly changing them. You want to change the goal, get rid of another one. Otherwise, it's just flavor of the month. 

And make sure everybody knows what their roles are. Because as you're saying, of the different lanes, very often a lot of the conflicts are between roles and responsibility. “Oh, you're doing that? I thought I was doing that. No, I thought you were doing that. Who's on First? What's on second?” And everybody's going like this. And everybody's like, “Oh, I thought you did that. No, didn't you say something? No, she didn't send it to me. So I'm sitting there. So why didn't you call? Well, I called once and they didn't respond. So why didn't you call a second time? Why didn't you walk over to the next building? I didn't have time”. 

And then of course, there's the issue of accountability. And how do we hold ourselves accountable in this team? And what do we want to do when there isn't accountability? So

having also what I call Operating Principles or Engagement Guidelines, how do we want to create a condition under which we will do our best work? And people are going “Ughh” and they roll their eyes. And then we start asking, “Well, okay. What we say here stays here. Very good. We start on time, we end on time”.

Okay, then we start getting to the integrity part. And then we start getting to the part about, “Well you know, maybe we should stop blaming each other and start trying to get to the bottom of things. Well, okay, what about how we talk to each other? We do a lot of yelling in this group. Okay, so what should we do instead of yell when we're mad?”. And so on. So when the group has a structure or agreed upon, it's great to share. And you want people to have conflict but how do they express the conflict when there's a difference of opinion? It makes a huge difference in people's stress levels.

Ross  

I like that. Because these practicalities of know the purpose of the team, treat people as humans, check in first and then not try and say, “We're never going to have conflict. And we're never going to have ambiguity or difficulty”, because the best will in the world, defining roles and responsibilities in an exponential world of change means that before long, those roles and responsibilities are going to…

Mindy  

They’re gonna change.

Ross  

So how we deal with that at a principles level of how do we show up and turn up to deal with something that was unexpected, we didn't like or didn't go as we planned? Those are perhaps the areas of opportunity for a new operating system. For teams in exponential worlds is dealing with those areas of, I know you've talked about in the past things about debriefing. What do we do well? What would you do differently next time? But the language of how do we talk to each other? What are our communication principles? Because being comfortable in the uncomfortable is…

Mindy

Exactly. I like that. Yes

Ross

Interesting kind of thought. And to flip it from that team thinking, what about for an individual in terms of some tips to help them in adapt to different roles, different responsibilities, things going wrong. What can they do to navigate that and stay sane at the same time?

Mindy  

Yes, and it isn't easy. Because part of us, we're all hardwired a little bit differently. So some of us are more generously hardwired to be adaptive. And it's easier for us, like some of us are physically more athletic than others. So some of us it's a little easier to adapt. But everyone can learn to adapt. And some of the principles I think in learning to adapt is what I would call or what people have called Emotional Agility. And that is, the key to that is self-awareness. How do I understand what triggers me? Because everybody's different. So one thing that triggers me might not trigger you. So if you understand your own triggers, and then you can manage yourself when you see that trigger, and I say “Mindy, okay that's a trigger for you and now you can go and get wound up and go at it, or you can try something different”. So, you got a 0.7 seconds before the amygdala hijacks you, and you got no choice. That's it. You don't have much time. 

Ross  

The shadow itself comes out.

Mindy  

That's it. And when the amygdala and our old brain are really primitive, autonomous, working brain get together, the executive functioning brain does not have a chance. Why? Because the executive brain is a baby, an infant brain. Those two smart brains, not so smart brains, those emotional brains they're older, millions of years older, so they gang up. And when they gang up, we can't think straight. So what we do is we kind of coach clients, in that little seven seconds that you have, it's like a switch. Instead of flipping the switch up, distract, turn it off, breathe, wear a rubber band and snap it. Do something that will stop that switch from going off. Do a mantra, whatever it is that works for you, before you go do something that you might regret.

Ross  

So that point of being in a state of psychological safety so that we can share, we can do things, we also then need the knowledge of what are our triggers? What motivates us? Is it a burning platform or is it a burning desire? All of these different things once we get an understanding, we can then either leverage them in flow, or manage them when they become a shadow self. So those techniques of spend time, reflecting and become aware. What triggers you to perform well or perform badly? To have the behaviors that you feel great about the next day and not have the behaviors that you regret you had in the situation. 

Mindy  

Exactly.

Ross  

And then be able to maybe share them and work just some simple interventions to recognize, “Ah my moments here, what works for me? Is it breathing? Is it snapping a rubber hand? What is it that takes me to a distraction out from that situation?”, and maybe recognizing the fact that right now, we're going to be in those situations more often than not. Because it's so challenging, that our identities are being questioned. You mentioned before Madonna style, you love reinventing yourself, every decade, who I am, what I'm about and ride with that. 

For many others that's anxiety, that's a sense of loss, that's a sense of protection. The immune system comes up and says, “Not on my watch”. To be able to deal with those emotions, and just the new daily life is different. And so start with awareness and be compassionate for yourself. I think is really, really interesting.

And as a last kind of wrap up in our final moments, is there a way in which somebody who has been inspired by the things that you have mentioned, could learn more about your work? You mentioned in the opening bit, you're an author and what are some of the books or papers or work that you've written? And how might people get in touch with you, Mindy?

Mindy  

Sure. People can get on my website, “collaborativenetworks.net” and so people can reach me, I’m happy to talk with people through “m.gewirtz@collaborativenetworks.net”. I don't know if you put it up in the chat or in however it is on a podcast. And I'm happy to talk with you further. I've written books on actually elderly criminals, which is fascinating. In another life I dropped book chapters and things in different life. 

Ross  

Maybe this needs to be another podcast, Mindy.

Mindy  

Yeah, that's a different podcast.

Ross  

Elderly criminals, now we’re to the juice in the final minutes.

Mindy  

Yeah, that was really cool, actually. And on top teams, top leadership teams, and an organizational change. So I actually wrote two chapters, one with the name of the organization, which the CEO gave permission and one without, that we did not put the name of the organization. And all of those are available on my website and I'm happy to talk with individuals around coaching and change.

Ross  

And as a final bit if the superpower of seeing around corners, the Mindy magic in doing that. If you had to make a kind of vision and prediction for even just this time next year. What are the attributes and skills would a leader need to thrive in a year's time? Is it different than what it is today? Is it the same and if so, what is that skill that they would need in your kind of predictions of what's coming ahead?

Mindy  

Well, what I think technologically, the next five years, our world is gonna look, our post-COVID world is going to change so exponentially between what 5G, what artificial intelligence, what the internet of all things, what those things are going to do, hopefully, we will don't go to war with each other and we don't kill out ourselves with another pandemic. And all those things hopefully, we're wise enough and aliens don't come out, who knows? The landscape is going to be very different. And the questions going to be and we're gonna have more robots than ever before, we're gonna have telemedicine, actually really like telemedicine a lot, much better than the waiting room in the office for two hours. 

So the question is, if it's going to move so exponentially fast than the leader, that the time the 18 months of Moore's Law that things change, you have to keep changing the technology, as that kind of like collapses and keeps collapsing. Then at what point does the complexity, our leaders gonna have to work in complexity in VUCA?

Okay, in Volatility, Ambiguity, Uncertainty, and Complexity. And what the leaders gonna have to have is what Warren Bennis used to call the ability of the stomach of a goat, so that they can chew on a lot of things. Because so much is going to happen so fast, they're going to have to be able to metabolize all sorts of things.

So number one, they're going to have to have tremendous psychological resilience themselves, because it's going to be stressful. They're going to have to have emotional agility, because there are things that are gonna move so fast, their minds are gonna be spinning. So they themselves need a coach or whoever they go to, for that emotional agility, resilience, and ability to constantly be adaptive and innovative.

Two, they're going to have to be able to make sure that collaboration and innovation is constantly happening. So it's kind of like you're here and you're creating the innovation at the same time and they're sort of doing that now already. But the speed of it is going to change. And you're already cannibalizing your old stuff and creating new stuff that's already happening. But you're gonna have to be like The Flash, the superhero who moves so fast. The speed at which is going to happen kind of out distances our capacity. So he's gonna have to be really, she is gonna have to be mindful of people. Because that's the only part that doesn't move so fast. Technology moves very quickly. That's not hard. But we have to remember that as people we don't, we can't, we just…

Ross  

Recognize and care about people. They need to in everything that they do, emotional intelligence, resilience, all of these things is being able to do it whilst at warp speed. And have I love the constitution of a goat, to metabolize multiple and complex things and survive in that VUCA World is fascinating. It's been an absolute pleasure. I look forward to diving deeper with you on many other conversations. I want to thank you for your time and sharing your insights. It's been a real honor to learn from you.

Mindy  

It's my pleasure and my privilege to be on this with you anytime.

Voiceover  

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